[Video] A simple 16MHz hack for my STE: why memory access is so important.

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Steve
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Re: [Video] A simple 16MHz hack for my STE: why memory access is so important.

Post by Steve »

exxos wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:29 pm
Steve wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:17 pm So out in the wild we have adaptors like the MonSTer or LightningST which give AltRAM, then we have 16/32mhz boosters with no AltRAM. What gives? :D ps I know AltRAM won't give graphics boosts because that is ST-RAM only, but would be awesome for productivity or multi-tasking.
https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/forum/viewt ... 280#p57280

But I stopped working on it a while back. The overall cost of the SRAM would put the thing around £200-£250. Plus lack of general interest. Its one reason I sidetracked to the TF536 for a bit.
Are we confusing two types of RAM? Becuase these Alt-RAM boards don't cost that much.
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Badwolf
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Re: [Video] A simple 16MHz hack for my STE: why memory access is so important.

Post by Badwolf »

viking272 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:09 am Nice video BW, explains it nicely. 👍

Is Alt-RAM feasible for the next step on this type of hack?
Steve wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:17 pm So out in the wild we have adaptors like the MonSTer or LightningST which give AltRAM, then we have 16/32mhz boosters with no AltRAM. What gives? :D
exxos wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:29 pm https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/forum/viewt ... 280#p57280
But I stopped working on it a while back. The overall cost of the SRAM would put the thing around £200-£250. Plus lack of general interest. Its one reason I sidetracked to the TF536 for a bit.
Mr Exxos has indeed been dropping some SDRAM-related hints for a bit.

Now I'm making no promises... but I do have one little dev board on order.

Screenshot 2022-01-14 at 17.39.37.png
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Screenshot 2022-01-14 at 17.39.21.png
Screenshot 2022-01-14 at 17.39.21.png (170.21 KiB) Viewed 1686 times

BW
DFB1 Open source 50MHz 030 and TT-RAM accelerator for the Falcon
DSTB1 Open source 16Mhz 68k and AltRAM accelerator for the ST
Smalliermouse ST-optimised USB mouse adapter based on SmallyMouse2
FrontBench The Frontier: Elite 2 intro as a benchmark
Steve
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Re: [Video] A simple 16MHz hack for my STE: why memory access is so important.

Post by Steve »

Ohh very cool :D I want one! :D
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Darklord
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Re: [Video] A simple 16MHz hack for my STE: why memory access is so important.

Post by Darklord »

Badwolf wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:58 pm
@Darklord mentioned it in the previous thread and, of course, it bridges the gap between a faster processor and normal ST-RAM.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if very good gains could be had with a decent amount of cache.
Yep. The AdSpeed manual states it thusly:

Screenshot_20220114_124335.png
Screenshot_20220114_124335.png (181.37 KiB) Viewed 1672 times

And it's pretty clear that if you turn the caches off (3!) on the Pak 68/3 boards, then performance
will be significantly affected as well...
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Re: [Video] A simple 16MHz hack for my STE: why memory access is so important.

Post by exxos »

Steve wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:42 pm Are we confusing two types of RAM? Because these Alt-RAM boards don't cost that much.
SRAM chips cost a lot. 4 chips at like £22 a pop I think it was back then. Plus, PCB, assembly, booster itself. It all ramps up. Who is going to pay £200+ for a ST booster with alt-ram ? I dare say likely nobody.
Badwolf wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:42 pm Mr Exxos has indeed been dropping some SDRAM-related hints for a bit.
^^^ Likely solution is if someone creates a fast-ram card using SDRAM which is a LOT cheaper than SRAM.. and if it can run up to 75Mhz.. It opens the door of adding alt-ram onto all my boosters.
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viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1585 Have you done the Mandatory Fixes ?
Just because a lot of people agree on something, doesn't make it a fact. ~exxos ~
People should find solutions to problems, not find problems with solutions.
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Darklord
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Re: [Video] A simple 16MHz hack for my STE: why memory access is so important.

Post by Darklord »

Hmm, really random thought here, and probably talking gibberish (which I do a lot it seems),
but is there any way there could be a "spirit of co-operation") established between the STorm-ST
people and certain gifted and talented accelerator board designers <nudge nudge, wink wink>,
to give their accelerator boards the ability to "grab" part of that 8 megs of ALT-RAM from the]
STorm-ST board and use it as a cache? Is that RAM fast enough to serve this purpose?

After all, the STorm-ST is readily available, decently priced, and *very* well supported by
Matthias + company.

As I said, probably just talking nonsense... :roll:
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Re: [Video] A simple 16MHz hack for my STE: why memory access is so important.

Post by exxos »

@Darklord It is indeed a good idea BUT, I tried to do that years ago with MonSTer's alt-ram like 10+ years ago ? it is what people wanted, but when I started investigating its operation with my boosters, well it just went the same way as many threads do on AF, In that I basically got shot down because my booster would not play with Monster. I was looking into it and offering possible solutions, but again.. Another reason why I left AF. Long story short, I really just gave up trying to work with other people just was not worth the effort. But as in general, people would rather complain and shoot down efforts rather than actually helping.

My STE booster has been on sale for a number of years now, if anyone really that bothered in a solution, it could have easily been done and I would have helped them make it compatible with the booster. But mostly these days I am concentrating on the H5 platform with the intention of just creating all the possible upgrades myself so I can make sure everything plays nicely together. We already have flash-rom, IDE, and many things in the prototyping stage. The only thing i've not had time to do , is work on a SDRAM controller. Pretty much everything else is done now.

But it seems at least @Badwolf Is looking to cooperate creating a alt-ram solution which will be compatible with boosters. With the H5 having multiple 68K sockets, my 64MHz SEC booster can be plugged in alongside such a alt-ram solution and I am sure myself and @Badwolf Can work out how to make them work nicely together. It really should not be that hard to do.
https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/atari/store2/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1585 Have you done the Mandatory Fixes ?
Just because a lot of people agree on something, doesn't make it a fact. ~exxos ~
People should find solutions to problems, not find problems with solutions.
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Badwolf
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Re: [Video] A simple 16MHz hack for my STE: why memory access is so important.

Post by Badwolf »

exxos wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:02 pm But it seems at least @Badwolf Is looking to cooperate creating a alt-ram solution
Aye. Although, Darklord, co-operation in general is a bit awkward as basically I'm a hobbiest giving away the designs and not making them. I can't really sidle up to Christian or Matthias and say, "Hey, boys. Let's get these two talking" until I actually have a working design. Even then, mine's likely to be evolved and changed by people -- it's not really a product. If those guys are selling and supporting theirs, they don't want that unknown interfering with things.

This little board I've drawn up (it's still on its way -- I was planning to keep it under my hat a little while longer in case it just flat doesn't work) is meant to be primary an SDRAM dev board to meet Exxos' needs, but it should have enough smarts to also perform a bit of clock switching, do some ROM decoding, or whatever functionality I can jam into the CPLD.

I'm hoping to get SDRAM working and send one to Exxos to have a play with. He may be able to drop in his accelerator equations, for example.

If he likes it and it does a job. He'll be free to make and sell them. :-)

This initial version won't be so cheap. The SDRAM was out of stock so I'll be putting a 16MB one on there and the CPLD I'm using is intentionally the biggest that'll fit the footprint to aid development. But, when stocks finally get back to normal, an 8MB SDRAM chip will cost about £1.80. The CPLD I'm aiming for will be a fiver. The rest of the components are jellybean.

BW
DFB1 Open source 50MHz 030 and TT-RAM accelerator for the Falcon
DSTB1 Open source 16Mhz 68k and AltRAM accelerator for the ST
Smalliermouse ST-optimised USB mouse adapter based on SmallyMouse2
FrontBench The Frontier: Elite 2 intro as a benchmark
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Badwolf
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Re: [Video] A simple 16MHz hack for my STE: why memory access is so important.

Post by Badwolf »

czietz wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:41 pm The logic required for caching is not that complicated. The much bigger issue is getting the required tag RAMs.
Ah, so it's special RAM that's the key is it? See? I'm a complete ingenue to the world of caching!
BTW: While it is not a feature we would advertise or support, I know people successfully ran the Storm ST at 16 MHz bus speed. Therefore, it should be possible to adapt an accelerator to use it.
Cool! :-)

BW
DFB1 Open source 50MHz 030 and TT-RAM accelerator for the Falcon
DSTB1 Open source 16Mhz 68k and AltRAM accelerator for the ST
Smalliermouse ST-optimised USB mouse adapter based on SmallyMouse2
FrontBench The Frontier: Elite 2 intro as a benchmark
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Re: [Video] A simple 16MHz hack for my STE: why memory access is so important.

Post by stephen_usher »

czietz wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:41 pm The logic required for caching is not that complicated. The much bigger issue is getting the required tag RAMs.
You can get QS8888-20P tag RAMs from Digikey, as long as you don't mind buying 86 at a time. ;-)
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